Q&A: David Rebuck on his New Jersey legacy

After four decades of service to the state of New Jersey, including 23 years as a deputy attorney general, David Rebuck, who in 2011 was appointed director of the Division of Gaming Enforcement (DGE) by New Jersey’s then-governor, Chris Christie, has retired. With a few hours to spare before the NCAA bracket for March Madness tipped off, the DGE’s longest-standing director spoke to EGR North America to explain why now is the time to call it a day and how he was lucky to be “part of the orchestra” that oversaw gambling in the state.

EGR North America (EGR NA): You’ve just retired from the DGE after 13 years as director. Why now?

David Rebuck (DR): I never aspired to this position. I had my career in higher education administration and as an attorney with the state, but I never envisioned becoming the director of gaming for New Jersey. It just wasn’t on my schedule.

It was by luck that it happened and, when it did, I began to realize very quickly that the gambling industry in the US — and certainly in New Jersey — would never be dull. It’s a 24/7 business, 365 days a year. At the end of last year, I came to realize that in New Jersey we’ve probably dealt with all the big issues. We’ve responded to them, resolved them, and there is now a sense of stability. 

The powers we had to oversee the industry, both civilly [with investigators and attorneys] and criminally [with our law enforcement agents], and the criminal prosecutors were just, “Wow!”

I worked with really talented people in the division. We were performing to such a high level and when we found that level of stability, I started to look at my future and thought, “What’s next, what do I want to do when I grow up?” Because I’m still young at heart.

The decision to leave was bittersweet. I would have loved to commit to staying longer, but I just felt in my heart I had given it all I had. The time to move on to new leadership was probably ripe. No one had ever stayed 13 years.

EGR NA: You went out with a bang. January data for monthly online sports wagering handle was $1.7bn — the highest yet recorded for the state. What do you attribute this to?

DR: The state has always been at the forefront of regulating and legalizing forms of gambling that were illegal.

The governors have been very astute in monitoring what people want, what they are interested in, how that can be regulated in a way to protect both citizens and companies that want to be successful, and do so in a way that ensures everybody is comfortable they’re not doing anything inappropriate or untoward. This approach has meant we have a regulatory structure that has been embraced by consumers with confidence. The numbers reflect this.

I believe gambling is no longer a vice that’s hidden. It’s in the general mainstream now and it has to be regulated in a way that reduces the risk of harm to people and operators, and the government, which we’ve done.

EGR NA: Why do you think the DGE has such a good rapport with operators compared to other states?

DR: When I took on the role of director, I was in charge of breaking down the silos that existed — not just in enforcement, but in the industry too. We all needed to be working towards goals desired by everyone. Our goals were to benefit the state, the citizens, and the operators.

There was to be no one side dictating messages about how those goals would be achieved. I think that was well received by the state and the industry because they knew that we spoke with one voice and had an open dialogue.

While we weren’t going to agree with everything the industry wanted, we’d be clear why, educate them on the reasons, and help them seek another way forward. There was always opportunity for compromise and, if objectives were acceptable, there would be an action plan to take them forward.

It’s very important that we always have an action plan. It’s very easy to just talk or write white paper after white paper, but white papers don’t do anything unless you have a plan. It must come back to collaborating.

If someone were to come to me and say, “Just tell me what you want,” I would find that the most frustrating. I want to be able to sit down with you, listen to you without speaking, then speak and take action. We may not agree all the time, but I never viewed the industry as an adversary.

I could be an adversary — I’m a lawyer, after all — but that wasn’t my goal. I’ll never forget the outstanding work our team did. They have been outstanding public servants. I’ve heard that from the industry and from my bosses, past and present, and they’re very proud of what we did.

EGR NA: When traveling with your team to help inform igaming regulation for New Jersey, which jurisdiction was the most inspiring?

DR: We really didn’t have any models in the US. There was Nevada, but their approach was different in that they viewed it as an add-on to what was an entertainment center. In New Jersey, we saw the potential of something very similar to what existed in Europe, so we started there.

The one regulator I felt provided our division with the most information was Jenny Williams [the head of the UK’s Gambling Commission, 2004-15]. I have a great amount of respect for Jenny. At the time, she and her staff were very influential in helping us understand how online gambling and sports wagering worked in the UK. We didn’t copy it completely, but we took a lot of what they did and used it as a baseline to implement here.

The other country that people probably would be surprised to hear helped us a lot was Australia. I would say those were the two that were most influential to us.

EGR NA: When we last caught up with you in 2021, you spoke of continuously overhauling and modernizing regulatory systems. Did you continue to do this in the past few years?

DR: Yes. We continued to improve our online models in a few key areas by taking advantage of ongoing changes in technology. We worked very hard to improve our KYC [know your customer], cybersecurity, and AML [anti-money laundering]. We were also always zeroing in on the use of advertising and promotions to ensure they met our consumer protection laws.

These areas continue to be ripe for more transformation because of the tsunami growth in the fintech industry. The tools that can be provided today cannot be underestimated. There are also a few things we started working on that aren’t public yet. They will be of tremendous benefit to the industry as well as the citizens and the regulators.

EGR NA: Can you tell us about any?

DR: One area is how players open an account to engage in online gambling. To open an account in the US, you have very little privacy. In New Jersey, you must share your social security number, name, date of birth, address, source of funds information, cell phone number, and IP address. So, when we started hearing talks of affordability checks in Europe, we thought about how we could do it. So much data is shared with operators voluntarily that could be used, with the help of fintech, to create responsible gambling profiles.

Rather than have sweeping standards for certain ages, operators could track an individual and work with them to maintain that person in a way that reduces the risk of harm. It’s meaningless to just set a limit for an age group and say because you are 25, you can only spend so much in a day. That 25-year-old could be earning more than you and I. We haven’t touched the surface on such uses of technology today in the US, but it’s coming.

EGR NA: Why do you think some states have taken so long to legalize igaming, or are reluctant to do so?

DR: Igaming is still relatively new here. We’ve only had online sports wagering since 2018 and there was a mad rush to implement that. Some states rolled it out well; others not so much. Some are still trying to figure out how to do that before moving on to something new. However, I would say six states have nailed it.

EGR NA: And those states would be?

DR: New Jersey, of course, and anyone that copied our framework. I don’t want to upset too many states by not mentioning them, but the ones that are doing well know it. I will highlight Michigan, though.

EGR NA: Why do you think there is such controversy around pick’em-style daily fantasy sports games?

DR: Fantasy sports is kind of an enigma to me. It has been in our country for a long time. In the past, anyone could do it by pen and paper, but it started to explode about 10 years ago when it hit the internet. Is it gambling? Is it skill? There’s no element of chance and you need that element to class something as gambling.

When PASPA was repealed in 2018, we wanted to focus on online sports wagering before tackling fantasy sports. It was a low priority, especially as some of the companies were moving into the sports wagering space instead. But now those companies are focusing on pick’em-style games, and it clearly seems like they are moving in to what New Jersey would consider sports wagering. It’s a real open area of discussion at the moment.

EGR NA: Operators also seem to be becoming more interested in lottery products and sweepstakes. Do you have any concerns with those?

DR: Sweepstakes have become a hidden form of gambling that’s exploded in popularity since being offered online. I would caution states to look closely at their sweepstakes laws and whether what is being offered is classified as social gaming and is actually skill-based or gambling.

Again, with online lottery programs, they are nothing more than online casino gambling. Some states that don’t allow online gambling have online lottery sales, so it’s about states deciding what’s important to them to regulate.

In New Jersey, the DGE worked with the Lottery Commission to review Jackpocket, which was recently acquired by DraftKings, in obtaining a license to operate in the state. At the time, everyone at the division was like, “Why would anybody buy an online lottery ticket?”

There are probably 3,000 retail sellers in New Jersey and you likely pass 10 on your way to work each day. We thought no one is going to do this. Why would you pay a premium for a lottery ticket when you can just go to any store?

Then we saw the numbers. They blew us away. We could not believe it. I asked my kids, “Why would people do this?” It simply came down to convenience. They buy everything online. Now I get it.

EGR NA: Upon leaving the DGE, was there anything you’d have liked to have achieved or done differently?

DR: Oh boy, in 13 years you do make mistakes! I always wanted to give my staff opportunities; an opportunity for them to speak and me to listen, view all the options they would bring to the table and then make a decision from there.

They knew that whatever decision we made, there was no going back, but we would build in a review to check if things were working. You’d hear if it wasn’t working by those it impacted and we’d make tweaks, but I’ve never had a blowup because we made the wrong decision. We’ve circumvented disasters by having an open dialogue.

You need to continue to strive for perfection because you’re never going to get it. If you think you have absolute perfection, then you’re mistaken and are going to be very disappointed.

Then there is something I always recall being asked at conferences, which I hated: “What keeps you up at night?” If I’m doing my job properly, I shouldn’t be worrying about anything. This industry works 24/7. There’s never any time off. And because of access to computers and phones, you work virtually. I’ll work 18 hours a day to get the job done. If there was an issue before I went to bed, I wouldn’t go to bed. My staff would be the same. We wouldn’t just clock off at 5pm knowing there’s a problem that could be ripe for abuse. That’s not the way it works in this industry.

It was a great ride, and I was very fortunate because I had tremendous leaders I reported to who gave me everything I needed. That can never be underestimated. Governors Chris Christie and Phil Murphy were outstanding. As far as personalities go, they were completely different. But as far as gaming is concerned, they were locked at the hip. They were visionary in taking this industry from what it was in 2010 to where it is today.

EGR NA: You must give yourself some credit too.

DR: I get enough credit. I tell people I was lucky to be part of the orchestra and to be a conductor.

EGR NA: Can we expect to see you involved in the gaming industry in some form going forward?

DR: I have some desires in the gaming industry that I want to make sure do well and have strong compliance programs. I have a deep interest in making sure citizens who gamble are protected and treated fairly.

Beyond that, I’ve been interested in Atlantic City. The whole concept of designing gaming in New Jersey was to bring about the economic development.

Atlantic City is a tough area to compete in; it’s very urban and has a high level of poverty. Like most small cities, it has a number of issues that are causing it to struggle beyond poverty, including blight and homelessness, so I’d like to stay involved somewhat with the economic development of Atlantic City and the resources that are being used to help the city be better than what it is today.

I’ve also always had a deep interest in a social issue that isn’t just related to gambling — suicide and suicide prevention — so I’d like to volunteer there.

Finally, I’d like to be even more engaged with my grandchildren and spend time relaxing, in the garden, and socializing with friends.